How Would You Turn Around Toronto?

[kq76]

If you were given the task of turning around Toronto, how would you do it? I made some suggestions for turning around teams in general in another thread, but since it looks like we'll be needing to find a new manager for T.O. and they're in such bad shape I think it'd be good to give some suggestions, especially some specific ones.

[creed]

Same as what I'm doing with PEI; trim the fat, and rebuild. NOt much else you can do till the balance sheet is green.

[JAttractive]

Man if my team wasn't still in the middle of this run it's on I'd be tempted to take it just for the challenge! Really it looks like Toronto has it's hands tied by some dead-weight contracts. It's going to take patience and a willingness to "lose" on deals. Too often I find GMs get an idea that a player is worth X and they won't take anything less than that for him. The problem is a player may be worth X in the right situation but if he is hurting your team then take Y for him!!! Who cares if you lose in the deal a bit? Overall your team is better off for it.

I remember a lot of GMs thought I was crazy (and some even questioned if something shady was going on) when I gave my 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th round pick to trade Chavarria off my team. The thing was, Chavarria was going to kill my teams budget for the next 5 years if I kept him and my team was too good to have one player screw that up for me. I may have lost those picks but they probably don't make a difference to my team anyway. In hind sight I can look back for instance and see that the first rounder was C Traskand he is not looking special and still in AA. None of the picks look like anything special from what I see. In the end it looks like no loss for me and I saved about 45 million in payroll for 5 years. Which allowed me to sign valuable players in free agency! See I didn't trade those picks to get rid of Chavarria.... I traded them for those free agents.

Now I am not suggesting Toronto trade away all it's picks in deals. If anything it should be trying to acquire more picks but you get my sentiment. They need to blow up that team and rebuild the farm. If they can get anything at all for a guy like Hildebrandt, Caples etc. you jump on it. Try contacting teams with lots of payroll room and see what it would cost for them to take the contract and buy it out. It may cost you one of your younger guys who has some value but in the end it may be worth it. Not like this team can compete for a good 4 or 5 years and by that time that "young guy" is 30 and making a high salary. In fact they should even trade guys like Wass (as great as he's been) and use the salary saved to cut yet another player. Try to package another dead-beat in the deal with Wass and save even more money.

Cut, cut and cut for the next two or three seasons and build up some picks. You will probably have 0 to spend in free agency this year (they are already going to lose millions) but that's ok. The goal has to be cutting the dead weight (even if it means taking less than market value to do it). There is just nothing to build on and too many contracts holding you back! The fun for the next few seasons is trying to be creative in your deals and financial moves, not trying to win.

[creed]

I remember a lot of GMs thought I was crazy (and some even questioned if something shady was going on) when I gave my 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 4th, and 5th round pick to trade Chavarria off my team. The thing was, Chavarria was going to kill my teams budget for the next 5 years if I kept him and my team was too good to have one player screw that up for me. I may have lost those picks but they probably don't make a difference to my team anyway. In hind sight I can look back for instance and see that the first rounder was C Traskand he is not looking special and still in AA. None of the picks look like anything special from what I see. In the end it looks like no loss for me and I saved about 45 million in payroll for 5 years. Which allowed me to sign valuable players in free agency! See I didn't trade those picks to get rid of Chavarria.... I traded them for those free agents.

So youre' the one that gave me that bloated carcass of a contract . Ah well, got six draftees out of the lot so there we go. Hope I'm not paying his contract right now.

[kq76]

Great post! We need rep on this board.

What you said is basically what I'd say. Get rid of everybody who won't likely be around for when you're competing. Turn all current assets into hopefully future assets. Get what you can, not what you'd like. Forget about trying to win deals. Right now your assets are more like liabilities so if you can get rid of them for nothing then do it. Sure, try to get what you can, but if you can't get anything for them then dump them and if they're actually helping you win then dump them fast. Get your finances in order even if that means taking huge hits to your finances by releasing guys you can't trade away. Forget about spending up to the cap. Slash and burn everything you can so you have budget room to actually acquire some good contracts that you can maybe trade away. Don't get it into your head that that's the way to turn a team around though because plenty of other teams are also looking for those value players. The way you're going to do it is by getting high draft picks by losing a lot and by getting whatever picks you can from trades. And finally, for when the team is turning around, make damn sure that you have the room to keep them. Learn from the last regime and don't sign any bad deals. Don't make that jump unless you have plenty of cap or budget room and you think you're really only that one guy away from really having a shot at a championship.

As for the Chavvy deal, I questioned whether you really had to trade all your picks (I probably would have just released him and took the financial hit), but I knew what you were doing and had to give you credit for your gutsiness. Toronto's situation is the exact polar opposite however. There's no chance of competing in the short-term; long-term is all they should be thinking about. In that situation prospects are much more valuable than cap or budget room.

[Afino]

What you said is basically what I'd say. Get rid of everybody who won't likely be around for when you're competing. Turn all current assets into hopefully future assets. Get what you can, not what you'd like. Forget about trying to win deals. Right now your assets are more like liabilities so if you can get rid of them for nothing then do it. Sure, try to get what you can, but if you can't get anything for them then dump them and if they're actually helping you win then dump them fast. The way you're going to do it is by getting high draft picks by losing a lot and by getting whatever picks you can from trades. And finally, for when the team is turning around, make damn sure that you have the room to keep them. Learn from the last regime and don't sign any bad deals. Don't make that jump unless you have plenty of cap or budget room and you think you're really only that one guy away from really having a shot at a championship.

I'd give rep for that entire paragraph.

Especially that "get what you can, not what you'd like" line. I'm in the middle of (another) tear-down rebuild elsewhere, and it's exactly what I'm doing.

4th round pick for a middle of the road MR? Sure.
Two project infielders for my starting SS who specializes in defense and is hitting WAY above his means? Absolutely.
Taking on a bad contract that expires after the season (since I have the room) and get a 3rd round pick with it? You bet your ass.

It's all about future assets - get as much as you can, even if it's not the best. Something is bound to pan out if you get a bunch of 2-star guys, odds one will bump up to a 4-star guy, but I like my chances with the more guys like that I have. It's like playing the lottery - the more tickets you have, the more chances to win.

[jazzrack]

i agree with the methods, but i don't agree that toronto is in that bad of shape. Frances, Ashe, Vizcaino all have expiring contracts thats 19.4 mil off the books, if you don't take the mutual option on caples than you only have a projected 31 mil of salary for 2033. yes, unless they can move caples this season the will those a bunch of cash, but the future is ok.

and the team is not that bad, there is no reason they shouldn't be at least around .500 even if they traded caples

[BruceM]

Yes, totally agree. I had to cut Principato because there was no way I was going to be able to move him at $18.2M for another 3 years and his ratings dropping. I took a hit on player expenses this year and was unable to bid on any FA's, but at least the money all went on this years budget. I was tempted to cut Cothren too, but he still has some talent and is on the books for only 2 more seasons at $15M. Plus I didn't want that much money on top of Principato's all against my expenses in one year.

I'll play with what I have for this season, which isn't too bad overall, and then try to get in on FA next off season.

That was almost half my payroll between Principato and Cothren. No matter how good a player is, I could never justify tieing up that much payroll on just two players.

[kq76]

Sorry, my earlier post was again more on how to turn a team around in general than specific to Toronto. Toronto has some decent players entering their prime, but I really don't think they have the core to really compete. They lost 97 games last year (100 pyth. losses) and I don't see them being able to do much better this year. Campbel and McKenna look to be new starters according to the AI and they could make a significant difference, but I don't see them getting to .500 this year. Their minors system stinks (their #1 prospect is a 1B who probably won't be starting-worthy at 1B even if he meets his potential). Their payroll is almost at the cap, well above their revenues and budget. Their fan interest is tumbling (luckily their fan loyalty is good so interest could quickly rebound with some wins). Are they doomed to be in the basement for a decade? Certainly not. Turning them around and in only a few years is possible, but if they don't want to just be a .500 team then it's going to take more work than just letting some contracts expire.

[jazzrack]

I love talkng shop!!

we just see the team differently, if i was toronto and didn't finish at least around .500 i'd be all pissed off they could use an ace, but they would have the cash for that in 33. they don't really need a minor league system for a few seasons, the time for them to strike is 33-34. we'll never really know and i suppose that is one of the things that makes this league great

[JAttractive]

Honestly I didn't examine the team all that closely so maybe they can be turned around quicker. Their farm system looked bad though from what I saw so honestly I'd still probably be looking to re-stock the cupboards and try to make a run in 3-5 years.

[JAttractive]

As for the Chavvy deal, I questioned whether you really had to trade all your picks (I probably would have just released him and took the financial hit), but I knew what you were doing and had to give you credit for your gutsiness. Toronto's situation is the exact polar opposite however. There's no chance of competing in the short-term; long-term is all they should be thinking about. In that situation prospects are much more valuable than cap or budget room.

I agree it wouldn't make sense in Toronto but I just needed an example of how a team can clearly lose on the deal but still come out better for it (arguably). You are right that I probably could have gotten more but it's not my style to chase down GMs on deals. At that point draft picks had little value to me (and still don't) so I just didn't care. I needed the cap room and I needed it fast.

I could have tried buying him out as you pointed out but again if I recall correctly some of my core guys were up for renewals and I didn't want to risk screwing up my finances. Rather risk losing some late round draft picks than one of my stars.

Anyway I don't want to side track this discussion further. I think we both agree that whoever takes over Toronto needs to be gutsy and make those hard choices! I'm not quite sure I'd openly admit to trying to trading anyone that helps you win (essentially admitting to tanking) but I agree with the sentiment. I consider it more "acceptance of losing" and trading your valuable assets away (thus in theory losing more often).

By the way I love these discussions too. We need more of these!

[jazzrack]

Honestly I didn't examine the team all that closely so maybe they can be turned around quicker. Their farm system looked bad though from what I saw so honestly I'd still probably be looking to re-stock the cupboards and try to make a run in 3-5 years.

i think i faced you in the cup with a team less talented than toronto is, i lost but i still got there

as for toronto they have a number of key players just hitting prime years & with so much money coming off after this season i would go for winning now.

of course i still can't decide exactly what to do with my own team ATM. i think i am about to waive & cut webster & ulloa (if i can't trade ulloa for a pack of gum or something) and just gor for it with the young guys. I don't have room for 3 starting 1b and a dh so the old guys are going to go.

i guess